Oljetype S6s 420g (E34 540i 6-trinns)

[S.Hafsmo]

Er det noen typer olje som er mere anbefalt enn andre for bruk i disse kassene?

Ser at på merket på kassen står det ATF olje, og mekonomen anbefalte Castrol Transmax Z. Det er det jeg kjører på kassen nå.

Men så tenkte jeg at siden kassen ikke har vært i bruk på 2-3 år, kunne det kanskje være lurt å bytte olje etter f.eks 1000km, for å få ut alt av kondens/rust etc. som kan ha satt seg i kassen mens den har stått i ro.

I den sammenheng lurte jeg da på om jeg skulle byttet type olje til f.eks Redline eller om noen har gode erfaringer med andre typer?

[Hoem]

Jeg bruker Royal Purple olje i min ettersom jeg hadde lest mye om den olja på akkurat denne kassen på amerikanske sider, kjørte på korrekt castrol olje før: DQII om jeg ikke husker helt feil, men etter bytte til royal purple ble kassen bedre å gire med.

[S.Hafsmo]

Hmm.. hvem forhandler Royal purple? mener å ha hørt godt om den olja selv når du nevner det.

[S.Hafsmo]

Har søkt litt rundt på emnet nå, og for alle de som vurderer Redline og Royal purple olje på sine Getrag s6s 420 girkasser vil jeg anbefale denne tråden jeg snublet over på M5board:

http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39-m5 ... ities.html

Riktignok en lang tråd, men mye interessant lesing fra både Royal Purple representant og Getrag ekspert. anbefaler å se igjennom hele, for så å gjøre opp seg selv en mening.

[iittala]

Jeg kjøpte nylig ny olje til min girkasse hos BMW (Bavaria), og jeg fikk Castrol Transmax Z levert over disken. Og min S6S420G har samme merking som din..

Jeg vet ikke hva som var på kassen fra før, men den oljen var i hvert fall typisk ATF-rød. Jeg opplever kanskje at kassen er blitt noe smidigere å få i gir nå, men supersmidig er den ikke.. Men det har jeg lest at flere rapporterer så det er neppe BMWs smidigste kasse dette..

[S.Hafsmo]

Ja jeg har og fått det inntrykket at dette ikke er bmw's smidigste kasse, men det er mange som sier at ettermarkedsoljer som f.eks Royal Purple faktisk gjør den mye smidigere! Dog er det ingen som vet om dette går på bekostning av oljens smøreevne, og at den over tid kan forårsake prematur slittasje på girkassen.

Så og i tråden jeg refererte til at en av ekspertene bekreftet at man ikke burde lene hånda på girspaken da dette over tid faktisk kan ødelegge girkassen.

Her er et Quote fra en getrag ekspert og hans synspunkter på div. oljer (samt det å lene hånda på girspak)

I have communicated a bit with Mr Jim Blanton, owner of Performance Gearing. In many Gearhead (pun intended) places on the net he is referred to as The Authority (outside of Getrag) on Getrag transmissions.

He is one of the few people outside of Getrag that has successfully disassembled and reassembled Getrag 226 gearboxes. (the gearbox in an E39 M5)

I´m herewith in no way taking sides in the OEM/aftermarket gearbox fluid debate, I just want to get as much relevant information put together in this thread as possible.

David

************

From me to Mr. Blanton:

...

More or less everyone [driving an E39 M5] has sticky or notchy gearboxes. But it seems whenever gearbox fluid is replaced (stock fluid replaced with new stock fluid) the gearbox works better for a short while, but then it is soon back to as it was.

Do you have any idea why replacing fluids helps momentarily?

Some people run with Redline or Royal Purple fluids. These seem to make

the gearbox smoother, but there are longivity concerns. Particulary people

with experience from Supras say there are bushings in Getrag 233´s that

swell with these aftermarket fluids and cause gearbox filures.

Do you have any information as to if there are any such parts inside a Getrag 226?

************

From Jim Blanton:

David,

Unfortunately, since BMW has withheld parts information/sales for both

of the Getrag 6 speeds ( 226 and 286) I have only worked on a

handful. The most common complaint is the one you mentioned and having

examined the internals of the 226, I would speculate that difficultly in

shifting is primarily due to the aluminum, direct pull shift forks (

unlike the pivoting shift forks of the 286). The shift fork for

3rd/4th gears has to reach the lower gear shaft which makes it twice the

length of the other forks, which accentuates (by virtue of flexing)

less than new synchro clutching action, misalignment of the shift fork

guide sleeve ( that pushes on the synchro and engages the shift gears),

etc.

However, I am not discounting your theory about bushing swelling , I

just think it is less probable since the 226 bushings appear to be the

same style/material that the 4 and 5 speeds used. Lube, though, does

make a great deal of difference and in a manual transmission where there

are diametrically opposed requirements ( optimal lubricity for gear

protection vs. high coefficient of friction for synchro operation) there

is lots of room for conflicting information. I still insist on Redline

MTL for all manual transmission rebuilds, but Redline D4 is acceptable

(especially in cold climates) since it is the only ATF that I know to be

GL-4 spec rated (no higher, no lower). If, for instance, the Royal

Purple lube you mentioned was GL-5 or GL-6 rated, this would be great

for gear protection ( like for a differential), but terrible for synchro

clutching action.

Since disassembly of either of these 6 speeds is quite complicated (and

there are no new parts available) I would suggest trying different lube

combinations ( e.g., 1/2 MTL plus 1/2 D4) until I found a mixture that

works best.

Hopefully, in the future BMW will be required to make parts available

for these and rebuilding becomes worth the effort.

If not, it appears that BMW is switching to ZF 6 speeds in the new cars

, and perhaps rebuild parts will be available through them.

Good luck and thanks for your inquiry,

Jim

************

From me:

Is it all-right if I quote your mail on the m5board.com messagboard?

(most of the 1000 M5 owners on the messageboard are Americans and, I

belive, potential future customers of yours)

For us in Europe, do you take overseas customers too, or is there anyone

you know of with your skill and experience this side of the Atlantic?

Very few people with 226 gearboxes have problems with 4th gear, most have

problems with 1st, 2nd and 3rd. I have been told by a BMW technician that gears 1-3 are tripple syncronized, whearas 4-6 are single syncronized.

If it was the fork that was the culprit, wouldn´t 3rd and 4th behave about the same? Of course it is plausible that a combination of 3rd gear syncro, a marginal guide sleeve and the long shift fork could turn 3rd gear into a problem gear, which it would not have been otherwise.

From that same BMW technician I got the advice never to let my hand rest on the gear stick, as that would push the oil film on the aluminium shift fork away, and wear the shift fork down rapidly, and thus destroy the

gearbox.

Best Regards,

David

*************

From Jim Blanton:

David,

Actually, 1st and 2nd gears have triple-surface synchros, 3rd and 4th

have double-surface sychros and 5th,6th and reverse are single

( just like the 286, V12 6 speed).

I would speculate that 3rd is simply the gear into which most of us

upshift and downshift more than any other. It is possible for wear to

occur on the 3rd gear side of the shift fork and not the 4th gear side,

which could make the transmission balky to shift into 3rd and out of 4th

( same side of fork), but not out of 3rd or into 4th (opposite side of

fork). But you are correct, if the fork itself is flexing from being

loose on the shift rod , for example, both 3rd and 4th would be

affected.

The Tech is correct, the habitual resting of one's hand on the shift

lever can eliminate the oil clearance between the aluminum shift fork

and steel guide sleeve, which is only in the range of 0.1mm to 0.2mm.

Please keep me posted concerning any lube alternatives that you try and

their respective results.

I do some trading outside the US, primarily differentials, specifically

limited slip conversions for '95 and later non-M models ( you are one of

the lucky few along with E46 M3) and gear ratio changes for all

differentials '83 to the present ( in your case, 3.45, 3.64, 3.91 or

4.10 ratios for E39 M5). The web site will have more detailed info and

options soon ( http://www.performancegearing.com ).

thanks,

Jim

PS - feel free to share information with anyone that wants it.

Dette ble sagt om skadene som oppsto på Supra bilene utstyrt med 6-trinns getrag girkasse ved bruk av Redlines girkasseolje:

I thought I would add my $.02 and help some fellow automotive enthusiasts out. A few months ago I was debating between the E55 and M5 and wound up getting an E55, but I still have an enourmous appreciating for the M5.

The Getrag 233 transmission found in the Supra Turbo did experience a NUMBER of failures due to the use of Redline synthetic fluid. This was proven, not hearsay. Just like you, many owners were sold on the extremely smooth feel experience when using redline fluid and many owners changed to it based on the claims from Redline to be within spec. We have hordes of Supras pumping 1000hp and 1000tq through these trannies and they have taken the abuse (myself included). Once in a while you may hear of a failure on a super high mileage car, or one with a lot of HP that gets beat on a lot, but for all intents and purposes our trannies are nearly bulletproof. That is with the Toyota recommended fluid. With the Redline fluid cars with 400hp were experience failures, and not just one or two, we're talking almost a dozen if I recall correctly. All these failures were from people using Redline fluid. It's not because we were drag racing, beating the hell out of our cars, whatever you want to say - these were people driving their Supras for the reasons they were meant to be driven. Don't just generalize and say we were spending every weekend at the drag strip.

One of the 'gurus' of our Supra community, Lance Wolrab, (who for all intents and purposes is one of the most knowledgable gear heads I've ever met... and that is saying a LOT) decided to get to the bottom of this since, at the time, our 233 transmission was non-servicable and therefore made some owners REAL upset when they had their transmissions fail. These are not cheap, as you know. It tooks months but after finally getting in touch with the right people @ Getrag through their Japan office the following was concluded: (this statement was linked to on roadfly, and is directly from Getrag)

Quote:

Dear Mr. Wolrab,

Referring to your e-mail to Getrag Japan / Nagoya office, we want to explain you what might have happened to your gearbox. On the following picture, you see the area of the gearbox (left side of the gearbox near to the clutch area of the housing with a snapring and a sealing plug), where your problem should be referred to.

We assume, that during the usage of the synthetic oil, the DU bushings, which support the pin for producing the select load in gate ½, expanded and reduced the inner diameter. The result is, that the pin can no longer move easily in these DU-bushing. In case of fast removing the shift lever, the spring loaded pin snaps back against its stop pin after a short period of time (metallic sound). In case of higher temperature, the inner diameter of the aluminium housing and the bushing increases more than the outer diameter of the select pin, so the gearbox works properly.

Going back to the original oil does not “repair” the bushing, so this is not a practical counter measure, whereas it is absolutely necessary that you use only released oils, especially for the functionality of the synchronizer rings and some other parts, which might suffer on the oil, as seen at your select bushing.

To repair your gearbox, basically the clutch housing preassembly have to be replaced in total to have new DU-bushings inside.

The possibility to repair this failure from outside is very unlikely and you should contact an authorised dealer.

For disassembling the pin the snapring have to be removed at first. After that, the sealing plug have to be disassembled by destroying it in the center with a small screw driver. This part might be available in the Toyota organisation with the part number 90 069-09001 (Getrag number 216.0.0102.00). After removing the spring and the pin you can see the inner surface of the DU-bushing. A repair of the bushing inside the gearbox is basically not possible and we would never try to do such things.

Even if you know it already, we want to inform you, that you will loose any warranty on the gearbox, if you try to repair it by yourself. It is the same, if you have used or you will use unreleased oil.

We hope, you have understood what might have happened to your gearbox, even we could not provide you an easy way of repairing.

Anyway, we hope you can enjoy driving your Toyota Supra Turbo with our 233 6-speed gearbox.

Best regards

ELK3 Martin Pöschl Manager

Customer Team 3

No one uses Redline fluid in their 233 transmission anymore. I am afraid by how similar the current situation and the one Supra owners experienced are. Everyone was sold on it's smooth shifting and promises from Redline that it was within spec. Then, all hell broke lose. I'm not here to criticize anyone or their products, and I have nothing to gain by even making this post - I just felt that I may be able to add a bit to the subject seeing as how I have been a part of the Supra community for so long and was around during our ordeal with Redline.

As with many situations in life, I say "Trust, but verify" Only recently did Toyota start selling 233 replacement parts through Toyota dealerships so it is much more feasible to service our transmissions now, however - you currently are not as fortunate and I would be very wary of risking a $5000+ transmission without the proper research done and the right questions answered.

[iittala]

Ja, dette har jeg lest før, og det var derfor det ble olje fra merkeverksted på min kasse...

[sdhild99]

On 9/2/2010 at 5:16 PM, iittala said:

Ja, dette har jeg lest før, og det var derfor det ble olje fra merkeverksted på min kasse...

Joda, 12 år gammel tråd, I know.

For det første er Redline og Royal Purple Syncromax ikke det samme. Ei heller Getrag 233 som stod i Supra er samme girkasse som 226 / Getrag S6S 420G.

Jeg kjører Bmw ATF Dextron II i min kasse men vurderer Royal Purple Syncromax for noe smoodere girskift når kassa er kald.

[Ingvaldsen]

1 time siden, sdhild99 skrev:

Joda, 12 år gammel tråd, I know.

For det første er Redline og Royal Purple Syncromax ikke det samme. Ei heller Getrag 233 som stod i Supra er samme girkasse som 226 / Getrag S6S 420G.

Jeg kjører Bmw ATF Dextron II i min kasse men vurderer Royal Purple Syncromax for noe smoodere girskift når kassa er kald.

Tar du en titt på m539 på youtube har han knekt koden med hvilken atf olje du bør bruke for å få bedre girskift på kald kasse

 

han tror jeg endte opp med liqiudmoly atf olje av et slag, men det finner du ut på filmen

[sdhild99]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:18 PM, Ingvaldsen said:

Tar du en titt på m539 på youtube har han knekt koden med hvilken atf olje du bør bruke for å få bedre girskift på kald kasse

 

han tror jeg endte opp med liqiudmoly atf olje av et slag, men det finner du ut på filmen

Takk for tips. Jeg har sett alle videoene til Sreten og olja han snakker om er Liqui Moly Top Tec 1100. Men det som var hans greie var at han byttet fra MTF til ATF-olje og det var mer byttet fra MTF til ATF som gjorde susen for ham.

Jeg kjører allerede ATF-olje og derfor er det usikkert og kanskje tvilsomt om et bytte til den olja han bruker vil gjøre noen forskjell. Jeg har faktisk spurt ham om dette og han sa at han ikke visste om det ville hjelpe og at 'alle' ATF-oljer var mer eller mindre like.

Ellers er greia at en del er fornøyd med en olje som heter Royal Purple Syncromax, men det er også mange som sier at den olja fungerer bra i starten men at den raskt blir dårligere og så er man tilbake der man var i utgangspunktet.

Girkassa mi fungerer egentlig veldig bra, bortsett fra at den er litt hard i 2. gir når den er kald, noe jeg har forstått er ganske vanlig.

Det er jo bare å prøve å bytte olje selvsagt for å danne egne erfaringer.

Tusen takk for innspill Ingvaldsen !

Endret Mai 31, 2022 av sdhild99